David’s Comments on Young Men and Independence; Jon's reply; Dave's Rebuttal, Jon's surrebutal, whose last word? Will these guys never stop arguing? No, of course not, it's a Sampson thing.
David’s essay, below, arose
out of an online article that purported to map communities in the US and their
impact on future earnings of young citizens. I had just been asking my sister
Sandy Jones what accounted for the mere 68% high school graduation rate at our
old alma mater, Siuslaw High School in Florence, OR. Her son Billy had just graduated—way to go,
Billy!—and plans to attend George Fox University this autumn. When I graduated
in 1965, the graduation rate was about 80% (100 of 125 students, by my informal
calculation). Sandy said a big problem in Florence is poverty. David has
another insight—young men are retained in school too long when they’re
naturally more inclined to be asserting their independence. David graduated
from Marshfield H.S. in Coos Bay, OR. in 1958.
Sue,
It is my view that the problems manifested in a lot of high school
kids – including me – were/are primarily caused by the social practice of
keeping kids in school (Effectively partially institutionalizing them, and
preventing them from being on their own at a chronological age where they were
regarded as adults in all previous eras other than our own, making and paying
for the decisions they make).
It is really tough to stop a hard-headed and determined young man
from asserting his independence, particularly when the ‘natural’ age to do so
is probably between 14-16 for most males. Trust me on this: No one would
have wanted me as a son as soon as I reached the point where I determined I was
only going to listen to me if they had tried to hold me back.
As an example, think about this little tale. You may or may
not remember Pete Susick, the legendary Marshfield High School football coach
during the teams glory years of the 50’s and 60’s but suffice it to say that he
was regarded as a near God in Coos Bay during that era. I didn’t get
along with him, and, finally, just before beginning my senior year, I walked
into his office after football practice and politely and respectfully said to
him that I wanted to talk to him for a minute. He brusquely dismissed me,
saying he didn’t have time, and ordering me to come back some other day.
I pleaded with him to talk to me right then, stating that if he
wouldn’t talk to me about what was going on football team wise, I was going to
have to quit. He barked – yelled – at me then to “go ahead and
quit. Clean out your locker and turn in your uniform right now!”
With that I instantaneously threw my locker keys right at him,
landing them on his desk and bouncing into his legs, simultaneously screaming
at him as loud as I could, and I quote, “Clean it out yourself!” I stood
there, glowering at him, ready to punch his lights out. His face drained
of color, and after a few seconds, I turned around and left, and never spoke
another word to him until my 40 year high school reunion where I was the MC and
he was an invited guest. At that point I was awarding the “Worst
teacher/administrator award” to our former principal, and I addressed Pete and
told him that I was really sorry he didn’t get the award but even though I had
nominated him for it, I was outvoted by the other members of the Award
Committee. Everybody laughed, including Susick; I think most people
thought I was just kidding. I hope he knew I was serious. He is dead
now, so I will never know.
PS Every time I go to Coos Bay I look for his
grave to piss on but I haven’t found it yet.
I, in effect, emancipated myself from my parents when I was about
16 1/2 years old. They would have kicked me out of the house – at least my
dad would have – but I had started living most of the time with some buddies of
mine, and refused to engage in a dialog with my parents which might have had
the outcome of a clean break at that time. Instead of that happening, my
parents simply allowed me to stay at their house if I wanted to or elsewhere if
I felt like it. I continued to get straight or nearly straight ‘a’s
throughout this period of 1 1/2 years and upon graduating from high school, got
a job and rented an apartment with a buddy, deciding not to go to college
primarily because of conflicts with my parents (Mostly my dad). I didn’t
see or talk to my dad from my graduation in early June until early September
when he came over to my apartment to discuss our relationship and my possible
college attendance. The outcome of this was that he agreed to pay my
college admission costs, tuition, books, room and board, etc., and I agreed to
give him my car (For some reason, he was fixated on the idea that a car for a
college student was simply inappropriate, primarily, I think, because he could
not afford a car when he attended college!). Then, after arriving at OSC
(It was a college, not a University at the time), I bought a car from another
guy in mid-October, about 3 weeks after arriving at OSC; dad didn’t learn that
I had bought a car until the following June when I came home for the summer and
the car physically collapsed, unable to be driven, literally upon my arrival at
my folks house. I had to borrow my mom’s car to give the fellow students who
rode home with me from Corvallis a ride to their parents houses. We then
negotiated a new arrangement for the next school year.
A little over a year later I joined the Army and was gone most of
the next 3 years except for a couple of leaves from the Army which I spent in
Coos Bay. During that time, as you probably remember, I found work as a
bartender/bouncer/waiter in a night club in San Francisco where I earned enough
money to be able to afford to pay cash to buy a 1961 Ford Galaxy Sunliner (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Ford Mine was baby blue). When I got out of the Army, Dad
insisted I give him that car to cover his cost of buying the 68’ x 8’
manufactured home I lived in until Sandy (Hutton) and I got married.
Dave
Jon replies:
Jon replies:
I think things went
'aray' with Dr. Spock's method of child rearing. E.g. this latest incident of
the mass murder at the Mother Emannuel Church, in S.C.. The 'house' which the
parents live in looks like a 'trailer' (without wheels), which (possibly) would
classify them as 'trailer trash (?)' or 'white trash,' and I'm assuming has some
responsibility for the young man's ideas/idealogy. If the household expressed
racist attitudes (as part of an excuse for their lack of financial/social
success), that may have been a contributor toward his DASTARDLY deed. If, also,
he was raised in a 'permissive' (Dr. Spock) environment, then, almost by
definition, he was not exposed to the values, which we (should have) grown up
with.
I don't think
children, since we grew up, are exposed early enough to the relationships
between an element of time, and what that means as 'earning power' for a given
amount of money. I don't think children, these days, spend enough
time out-of-doors. I don't think they appreciate the relationship between their
specific actions, of a moment, and the physical discomfort (to include death)
they might cause to themselves, or to others.
In Myrtle Point,
through grades 1 to 5 1/2, we seemed to have 'spending money' e.g. for
jawbreakers & such at Moon's Hardware on the way to school. After that, in
Florence, I mostly remember some sort of work in exchange for any money I had.
That continued through graduation from college when I (or the family) didn't owe
a dime (not counting the '58 Chevy which Dad financed and I took to Europe on my
first tour of duty). On my desk here in our office is a two-bulb flourescent
lamp which Mom bought for me to study with in school. That's the 'financial
assistance' I can remember receiving from anyone.
On the young man who
killed the nine people in S.C., once he was proven guilty, I would be tempted to
start cutting off the fingers of his right hand (starting with the trigger
finger), and cut off each one at the joint (eight joints of the fingers, and one
at the thumb). I would make it 'humane' by using a sharp chisel and a heavy
hammer. Preferably, it should be taped, and put on social media to deter those
who would think about such an act in the future.
jl
Sue, you can delete
the last paragraph....if you wish. : - )
Jon,
The only trouble with your notion of ‘chiseling’ as a ‘deterrent’ to other
is that punitive measures of this sort don’t appear to work to effectively deter
criminals and psychotics from their activities. If so, then the US would be the
safest, most crime free country on earth since our prison population is higher
in numbers and proportions than any other developed nation ... but we are not.
Instead, we appear to have more crime – maybe largely attributable to our
governmental paranoia re drugs – than other developed, westernized
nations.
Additionally, I know of no reputable study which has been able to lay the
cause for crime, particularly heinous crimes like the kid in the Colorado
theater (The trial is going on right now, I think) and the Mother Emanuel Church
incident at the feet of Dr. Spock and Sam I AM! However, there is a bunch of
evidence that suggests that corporal punishment of children leads towards
violence when they mature, kind of the opposite conclusion I think.
Dave
I think the point I was trying to make is that children need
to have positive values instilled in them, (and re-inforced) from the get-go
(i.e. their birth). When done successfully, that should eliminate the need for
corporal punishment at all. (Dad, after his little set-to with the drunk at the
'Joint', did not to my knowledge lay a hand (in anger) on another human being
for the rest of his life (certainly not any of his family).
Conversly, if we're talking about corporal punishment for
adults (who did not learn the lessions I'm talking about) then Bush '43 should
be on the docket (in Brussels) for war crimes.
jl
Jon,
There is an argument that human beings are by nature averse to injuring
other human beings without training thereto. It is the nature vs. nurture
argument; unfortunately, both can be quickly overcome by human will,
particularly when the individual family member or the self is threatened. Even
more unfortunate is the apparent fact that danger can be misinterpreted and
appear to appear when it is nonexistent.
Dave
Dave, I think that relationships.....one to
another....may be somewhat related to each person's upbringing. You and I had
the advantage of playing 'contact' sports i.e. football in high school. From
that we 'learned' the exact consequences of 'hitting & being hit.' In the
example I used below, my perception of Mr. Bush's 'contact sports' most likely
was his feet hitting the ground after he had jumped in the air while leading a
cheer. (& later bringing a 'beverage' container to his lips for a few
years.) I have no idea about cheeney & ruhmsfeld's experience with
'contact' sports. I can think of no three people I would want less to be
sending me to war.....and yet they did just that!
Jon
These guys won't stop arguing: See the continuation as follows:
These guys won't stop arguing: See the continuation as follows:
Jon,
It turns out that Cheney played Football (He was the Co-Captain of the
team) for his high school, Natrona, in 1957. The school has about 1300
students, about the size of Marshfield when I went there. See http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/21/us/dick-cheney-fast-facts/
Cheney was co-captain of Natrona High School football
team and senior class president. Lynne Vincent, his future wife, was the
homecoming queen. I therefore conclude that he had at least as many ‘contact’ sports
‘contacts’ as you and I had during the same time period – although he is one
year younger than we are.
Rumsfeld had similar exposure to ‘contact’
sports. For instance, while he attended Princeton, he participated in
athletics as follows: ...During his time at Princeton, he was an accomplished
amateur wrestler, becoming captain of the varsity wrestling team, and captain of
the Lightweight Football team playing defensive
back...
Accordingly,
I conclude that Rumsfeld also had as much ‘contact’ sports activities as you and
I did.
All
this means, I think, that you cannot predict political activities, beliefs and
performance by ‘contact’ sports participation or non-participation. Such
athletic experience is simply a non sequitur as far as politics is
concerned.
Dave
Dave, I think that relationships.....one to
another....may be somewhat related to each person's upbringing. You and I had
the advantage of playing 'contact' sports i.e. football in high school. From
that we 'learned' the exact consequences of 'hitting & being hit.' In the
example I used below, my perception of Mr. Bush's 'contact sports' most likely
was his feet hitting the ground after he had jumped in the air while leading a
cheer. (& later bringing a 'beverage' container to his lips for a few
years.) I have no idea about cheeney & ruhmsfeld's experience with
'contact' sports. I can think of no three people I would want less to be
sending me to war.....and yet they did just that!
Jon
From: Dave Sampson
Jon,
There is an argument that human beings are by nature averse to injuring
other human beings without training thereto. It is the nature vs. nurture
argument; unfortunately, both can be quickly overcome by human will,
particularly when the individual family member or the self is threatened. Even
more unfortunate is the apparent fact that danger can be misinterpreted and
appear to appear when it is nonexistent.
Dave
I think the point I was trying to make is that children need
to have positive values instilled in them, (and re-inforced) from the get-go
(i.e. their birth). When done successfully, that should eliminate the need for
corporal punishment at all. (Dad, after his little set-to with the drunk at the
'Joint', did not to my knowledge lay a hand (in anger) on another human being
for the rest of his life (certainly not any of his family).
Conversly, if we're talking about corporal punishment for
adults (who did not learn the lessions I'm talking about) then Bush '43 should
be on the docket (in Brussels) for war crimes.
jl
Jon,
The only trouble with your notion of ‘chiseling’ as a ‘deterrent’ to other
is that punitive measures of this sort don’t appear to work to effectively deter
criminals and psychotics from their activities. If so, then the US would be the
safest, most crime free country on earth since our prison population is higher
in numbers and proportions than any other developed nation ... but we are not.
Instead, we appear to have more crime – maybe largely attributable to our
governmental paranoia re drugs – than other developed, westernized
nations.
Additionally, I know of no reputable study which has been able to lay the
cause for crime, particularly heinous crimes like the kid in the Colorado
theater (The trial is going on right now, I think) and the Mother Emanuel Church
incident at the feet of Dr. Spock and Sam I AM! However, there is a bunch of
evidence that suggests that corporal punishment of children leads towards
violence when they mature, kind of the opposite conclusion I think.
Dave
GOOD WORK Dave, r.e. your research on Cheney &
Rumsfelds' exposure to contact sports while growing up. Let's see where they
have been since: Shannon Appelgate in her book "Living Among Headstones,"
recounts the burial of her younger brother, Rexito (age 40+), in the 'Pioneer
Cemetary' on their property in Yoncalla, OR, and one of his previous statements
to her: "Sis, it's like this, I work for one of the biggest undertakers in the
world." (Brown & Root....a subsidery of Halliburton.)
Rumsfeld, who 'leap-frogged' with Cheney during tours
in government, was put in as the Sec Def (as I understand it) to be the
'Efficiency Expert.' & 'streamline' the Defense Department. By ignoring the
recommendations of the military planners (r.e. their troop strength for the
'invasion' of Iraq), the 'troops' had to by-pass certain areas such as
ammunition storage areas. These then......certainly became the explosive source
for the IED's which have plagued us since then, and who knows how long into the
future.
The next time you come in contact with a veteran
missing one or more limbs, mention that Mr. Rumsfeld "missed the lesson of
contact sports while he was in school."
Jon
P.s. Sue.....tear your hair out.....& let me know
if you want me to bring a wig to the reunion. : - )
Jon,
It turns out that Cheney played Football (He was the Co-Captain of the
team) for his high school, Natrona, in 1957. The school has about 1300
students, about the size of Marshfield when I went there. See http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/21/us/dick-cheney-fast-facts/
Cheney was co-captain of Natrona High School football
team and senior class president. Lynne Vincent, his future wife, was the
homecoming queen. I therefore conclude that he had at least as many ‘contact’ sports
‘contacts’ as you and I had during the same time period – although he is one
year younger than we are.
Rumsfeld had similar exposure to ‘contact’
sports. For instance, while he attended Princeton, he participated in
athletics as follows: ...During his time at Princeton, he was an accomplished
amateur wrestler, becoming captain of the varsity wrestling team, and captain of
the Lightweight Football team playing defensive
back...
Accordingly,
I conclude that Rumsfeld also had as much ‘contact’ sports activities as you and
I did.
All
this means, I think, that you cannot predict political activities, beliefs and
performance by ‘contact’ sports participation or non-participation. Such
athletic experience is simply a non sequitur as far as politics is
concerned.
Dave
Jon,
Lest we forget, in the USA our system typically uses civilian leadership of
the Department of Defense. To be sure, such leadership may sometimes get
certain things wrong based upon military perspectives/insights. Your example
about troop strength for the invasion of Iraq strikes me as a little odd in the
sense that the original military objective(s) were quickly met; the problems
emerged later as a consequence of the decision to disband Saddam’s army and
police force. I don’t know who made that decision, but it was clearly a bad one
in terms of its outcome. Paul Bremer’s lack of military experience certainly
didn’t help him much in making administrative decisions while he was in charge
in Iraq ... on that I am sure we will agree.
Dave
Dave, if Sue put out a 'hit' on each of us, I think it
might be 'justifiable homicide.' Let's go back about 4 wars to the beginning of
WW11. Gen Marshall was in charge (of the military) in Washington. He brought
Ike back from the Phillippines (from his job as an aide to Gen McArthur), and
asked him to write down what needed to be done in the Pacific. One thing Ike
wrote was that we needed, at least initially, to give up the Phillippines.
Marshall was impressed, and so the war went. R.e. some of the 'other' wars:
Gen Wheeler, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, should have 'fallen on his sword'
over going into Vietnam as we did in the first place. Even MacNamara finally
got the message when a veteran grabbed him by the seat of the pants & shirt
collar and 'threw him over the rail' of the Martha's Vineyard ferry. I think
the problems with Iraq were from the get-go when we went in 'light;' failed to
secure things like ammunition storage areas, etc..
Jon
Jon,
Every thing else notwithstanding, if Bremer would not have been placed in
charge of Iraq and a soldier like MacArthur (Who was in charge of Japan after
the VJ day surrender) had been, the outcome in Iraq would have been materially different
– vastly different in my point of view - had been responsible for the execution
of the post war ‘plan’, GW, Cheney and Rumsfeld today might be seen as geniuses
rather than colossally inept fools.
Dave
Dave, if Sue put out a 'hit' on each of us, I think it
might be 'justifiable homicide.' Let's go back about 4 wars to the beginning of
WW11. Gen Marshall was in charge (of the military) in Washington. He brought
Ike back from the Phillippines (from his job as an aide to Gen McArthur), and
asked him to write down what needed to be done in the Pacific. One thing Ike
wrote was that we needed, at least initially, to give up the Phillippines.
Marshall was impressed, and so the war went. R.e. some of the 'other' wars:
Gen Wheeler, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, should have 'fallen on his sword'
over going into Vietnam as we did in the first place. Even MacNamara finally
got the message when a veteran grabbed him by the seat of the pants & shirt
collar and 'threw him over the rail' of the Martha's Vineyard ferry. I think
the problems with Iraq were from the get-go when we went in 'light;' failed to
secure things like ammunition storage areas, etc..
Jon
Guys......I'm seeing some parallels here, between
MacArthur's ambitions (r.e. North Korea & China), & DUBYA's actions in
Iraq. Had Truman 'allowed' MacArthur to 'conquer' North Korea, it might have
been in the best long term interests of all of the peoples of Korea. However,
if Truman had allowed MacArthur to go on into China, we could be still fighting
them (similar to DUBYA going into Iraq).
In my view, Truman was 'pragmatic' enough to use
'Nukes' to end the war with Japan, but also know when & where to not further
use them.
I think we (the U.S.....& our allies) made our
point in Korea.
Theaterorically, that should have eliminated the need
to 'yet again' bail out the French, (as we have been doing since our own
Revolution), in a place called Vietnam.
From: Susan Sampson
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 10:30 AM
To: Sampson
Subject:
Jon,
It is good to remember that “some part” of the US Electorate would have
voted for the Grand Dragon of the KKK if he would have been running; worse, they
would still vote for him even today after 8 years at the helm.
Dave
From: The Sampsons
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 9:56 AM
To: wdavis@kimmelathletic.com ; cliflowry@att.net ;
Davidsampsonatbearcreek@msn.com
; macarr385@gmail.com ; susanraesampson@hotmail.com ; stevep38@verizon.net
Subject: FW: Happiness Farm (3 Aug 15)
If things (such as this poster) are now in circulation,
it must mean that SOME PART of the US electorate is becoming aware of what a
disaster the election of Bush 43 in 2000 was. Joe Six-pack & his wife, Mary
Missionary (who watches evangelistic TV while doing the ironing), with the help
of the Supreme Court, put into place an administration which will affect them
& their decendents for at least a generation or more.
Joe (Six-pack), now becoming aware that the budget
surplus (which Bush came into office with.....and 'squandered?' on a 'tax cut
for the rich,') and later got us into two wars, the latter of which was uncalled
for, may no longer wish to 'have a beer' with this man..... even if invited.
The more correct figures on the poster are: 140 - 158
thousand killed (4425 US); 32,223 wounded. The 39.9 Billion to Cheany was
actually the contracts to Halliburton during this
'exercise.'
If Joe (& Mary) wish to vote republican this next
time, they will probably go for 'The Donald', who, at least, has done something
successful in the past, and is making a pitch for new jobs.
Elder Jon (written from my tree
house)
From: Susan Sampson
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 10:30 AM
To: Sampson
Subject:
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